I see more and more posts like this on DF's forums
Its too bad your visions will fall to the might of human nature. None of what you want will ever come to light. Consider that the internet is like beer; the more you drink the more your real personality is let loose. Put a young adult behind a keyboard, make him anonymous so that he does not have to 'see' other people, and suddenly everything changes. They become rude, they cause grief for the sheer fun of it, they stop caring about other feelings. In essence, their true nature comes out to play. Oh, there are many who dont fit that role, being that their true nature is not that of an asshat. But the sad reality is that when your immature, you have not yet found who you are, so your more guided by instinct than reason.I know i sound cynical, and maybe I am, but the gist is true. People are simply jerks when they dont have to directly interact with others.
*sigh*, this person obviously does not understand what a stakes game (or human nature) is about.
Imagine someone writing a post like that about poker. Poker is a Zero Sum Game, in order for you to win your opponent HAS TO LOSE. You have absolutely no incentive to cooperate with other players, and will be as much of a 'jerk' to them as you possibly can.
DF (and life) is not zero sum, you can benefit by cooperating with people, however many interactions in DF certainly can be zero sum. This poster fails to realize that people aren't being 'jerks' when they gank him, they are optimizing their own strategy.
And posts likes this:
REALLY TRAV?????? How original. I guess you didn't read the part where I stated that I am not a crafter. I actually am the one looking to gank you crafters and I just wanted to get a bead on how you guys feel about the exploit of being ganked in town.Anyway Trav Warcraft is actually a much better game than this. Ganking people anywhere is largely overated. The novelty wore off after 5 minutes. Maybe if you ever played a "REAL" FPS game then you would understand the concept.I know you think your edgy and cool because this is your first experience with actually being able to kill a real player but your still and MMO geek living in your moms basement jacking off to your daddys porn mags and listening to Radiohead.
In (real money) poker. the only thing to do is gank, thats it, no crafting, no 'pve', no social interaction at all, you JUST GANK. Yet it is popular, the novelty does not wear off after 5 minutes. (the novelty of a no-money game certainly does wear off quickly though).
It is such an invalid argument and I see it constantly, obviously my 'In Defense of Item Loot' post is a more detailed rebuttal to this stuff, but I wanted to post a couple of examples.
Whenver you see these arguments, understand that the poster is just a dumb scrub that doesn't understand human nature nearly as well as he thinks he does.
Showing posts with label item loot. Show all posts
Showing posts with label item loot. Show all posts
Tuesday, March 24, 2009
Going Solo
Darkfall is talked about as being an extremely difficult game to solo in, this article for example lays out the case that darkfall is designed for groups/clans and not solo players.
The first line of that article is:
If you’ve been keeping up with DarkFall impressions you might have noticed a trend. Solo players hate it; people in active guilds love it.
I intend to put this assertion to the test. I would like to say that I do agree with all of the points in the article, I just think that there is an exception to the rule, which is a player that enjoys extreme difficulty.
I am going to solo in Darkfall (when I get it), and we'll see how far I get, and how much I enjoy it. I'm hoping and expecting that I will enjoy it a lot, but I am not the typical soloer, I'm not completely ruling out the possibility of joining a clan, as tactics do need to be flexible, but I'm not going to actively seek one out and am going to see how well I can do alone.
First, it is important to recognize the limitations of playing solo, you are never going to win on the same scale that a clan can, a solo player will never control (or even seige) a city, and as I've outlined in a previous post clans can betray (pk) you at will and usually suffer no consequences for it (but not always, the resourceful soloer sometimes has teeth).
So, rather than approaching the game as a clan will, trying to gather power and influence, a soloer instead needs to play more like an animal, both predator and prey, with the simple goal of surviving till your next meal.
The main reason I think I'll do ok, is that I have done it before, in EQ, I solo'd on Tallon Zek quite a lot, including things like raiding crushbone to attack groups of dwarves by myself and take items from them, the mechanics favored that a bit more though. I was a wizard so I could do quick damage to take someone down, loot him, duck in the river and gate before they even realized what was going on. Stuff like that will obviously be a lot harder in this game.
I also played on Sullon Zek when it opened (a short lived 'hardcore' server with if I remember correctly full item loot). I solo'd there and did pretty well despite the harsh environment. I'm something of an outlier but even in a game as unforgiving as DF there should be a fair amount of people going solo (at least part-time if nothing else).
My final thought on this is, that although clans do offer increased benefits, they also are nearly universally alpha-male systems, where a concentrated few people at the top of the organization reap most of the benefits. Being a 'cog' in a clan may offer you safety in numbers, and your clan itself may go on to great heights giving you a reputation just for being a part of it, but unless you are one of the alpha's you are probably just one of the herd.
I think this article sums up what I am trying to say on that point. Bonedead definetly knows the feeling of being a cog hehe (relevant quote below).
The point is, strength in numbers ftw in DF. Even though I wish I had uber combat skills, unlimited suits of plate, unlimited mounts, and not having to deal with lazy fucking failures who can't even have some guild pride and defend their fucking city, that isn't happening anytime soon. So I must sit back and wait and hope that strength in numbers remains plausible.
I'm hopeful the game will be released this week so I can start with my 'field work' :)
I think this article sums up what I am trying to say on that point. Bonedead definetly knows the feeling of being a cog hehe (relevant quote below).
The point is, strength in numbers ftw in DF. Even though I wish I had uber combat skills, unlimited suits of plate, unlimited mounts, and not having to deal with lazy fucking failures who can't even have some guild pride and defend their fucking city, that isn't happening anytime soon. So I must sit back and wait and hope that strength in numbers remains plausible.
I'm hopeful the game will be released this week so I can start with my 'field work' :)
Sunday, March 22, 2009
In Defense of Item Loot
This was originally written as a post on the Darkfall forums, someone replied that no-one cares and to go create my own shitty blog instead, I realized thats actually not a bad idea since I have more to say on this subject, so here is my first post, please realize that I wrote it intended for a message board and not a blog.
I'm already seeing threads popping up in the general discussion forum asking for no item loot and/or single item loot, backpack only, etc etc etc. Basically the exact same conversations I saw years ago with EQ. So I am writing this as a rebuttal to those arguments.
The first point, is that this game was designed for item loot, if you do not enjoy item loot, you can go to nearly any other mmo for a playstyle that better suits you. This is what people basically mean (imo) when they say 'go back to wow'. They are really saying 'this is the ONLY game in town with the ruleset I want, don't ruin it'.
Secondly, item loot raises the stakes for the players, for people that like high stakes this is very important.
Allow me to make an analogy.
Poker is a good example of what I mean, real money poker is very much like item loot pvp, you don't 'kill' the other player, but you certainly do do your best to gank him and take his stuff (money), and in fact poker is pvp in its literal sense (player versus player).
This is not to say that playing poker for real money is the only way to play, especially for beginners and people that don't like risk, a beginner to the game will usually play with friends for very low stakes, or against a computer, eventually if they enjoy it they may play at a freeplay site like pogo.com. If they feel they are good at the game AND enjoy the thrill of playing for real money they may try playing at a casino or at a real money site.
comparing the different levels of play:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Against a Computer: Equivalent to playing a single player game, no risk, no reward, the best thing it has to offer is practice
Against People. No Stakes: here we have the equivalent of the wow player, no risk, possibly some small amount of reward (pogo etc you can win 'points' but if you lose you just get more chips to play with for free). You have the advantage of playing against a human opponent. much like wow pvp'ers who want the challenge of a human opponent, but not the risk of losing your stuff.
Against People. With Stakes: this is the hardcore category, you are playing against real people like the previous level, but now you can actually win or lose money. for many people that is the thrill of the game. For others, the mere prospect is horrifying, neither are right or wrong, and both should be able to play the version they prefer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All of the above ways of playing are totally viable, some are more 'carebear' than others but that is what some people like. That is fine, however coming to this game and asking for no item loot, is like a pogo player going to a casino and asking everyone to stop playing for money. The most likely response would be 'go back to pogo, mule' (sound familiar? swap pogo for wow and mule for carebear and there you go).
I have found that real money poker players, generally have a very good 'pvp' outlook. you wipe out their whole stack and the most likely thing you are to hear is 'nh' (nice hand). Some people of course bitch when they lose (especially to a bad beat) but this is the minority.
Tactics also change as you go up in levels, versus a comp you are going to mainly just find out what the comp tends to do, then exploit that as much as you can. versus players with no stakes games tend to be very heavy betting (all in on first good hand, lots of raising, etc). even at the low stakes tournament level you will see a lot of play that mirrors that tactic (because the tournament setup allows for this to be viable). when just sitting at a table playing for real money, people are much more cautious. The gameplay literaly is at a higher level because of the risk and reward involved.
When I played EQ and item loot went away, I saw many of the same arguments being made then as are being made now. Including 'you people are all griefers and gankers and will drive each other off in a couple months' and 'there's no market for what you want' etc etc.This is plainly false, the interest shown in this game proves that. There is a market for a full item loot pvp game (it's why I'm here) and if ganking drove people away real money poker would not be successful.
If this game succeeds it will be mostly because of item loot pvp. If it fails it's going to be mostly some other reason (poor support, patching, rebalancing, whatever). People LIKE item loot pvp, not all and maybe not you, but there is a market for it, the interest in this game has amply demonstrated that regardless of whether it actually succeeds or fails.
I am here because I like the thrill associated with the high level of risk and reward this system offers, without that I could get everything this game offers either from other mmo's or from playing an fps.
Speaking of FPS's, that is another example of the warcraft level of play, you play against other human opponents (more fun than playing against a computer) but you play for no stakes.
Being a person that plays poker for money, the idea of going to a site like pogo and playing is completely laughable to me. 'boring' would be my one word description. I feel the same way about pretty much all mmo's, 'boring' encompasses 90% of the mmo experiences I've had, the best memories I have from mmo's involve some type of risk/reward. Getting scammed in the realm, item loot pvp in EQ, 'epic quest pvp' (after item loot was gone) in EQ came close since again there were stakes involved. having the fire elemental part of our cleric epic stolen from us and then killing the lights that did it and camping them for so long their bodies were literaly in danger of expiring, then fighting over solusek for months to prevent those lights from getting a cleric epic. good times.
My 2 years in wow? nothing sticks out. Again you may not be the type of player that enjoys risk, but if that is true then this simply is not the game for you, you're trying to play pogo style in a casino. 'go back to wow' may be the short and rude version but there is a reason people say it. The common rebuttal to 'go back to wow' is that you will just drive people away with that attitude, but the truth is that players who do not like risk should go play another game, this one is not for them in the same way that a casino is not for someone that hates gambling (but enjoys playing cards).
I'm already seeing threads popping up in the general discussion forum asking for no item loot and/or single item loot, backpack only, etc etc etc. Basically the exact same conversations I saw years ago with EQ. So I am writing this as a rebuttal to those arguments.
The first point, is that this game was designed for item loot, if you do not enjoy item loot, you can go to nearly any other mmo for a playstyle that better suits you. This is what people basically mean (imo) when they say 'go back to wow'. They are really saying 'this is the ONLY game in town with the ruleset I want, don't ruin it'.
Secondly, item loot raises the stakes for the players, for people that like high stakes this is very important.
Allow me to make an analogy.
Poker is a good example of what I mean, real money poker is very much like item loot pvp, you don't 'kill' the other player, but you certainly do do your best to gank him and take his stuff (money), and in fact poker is pvp in its literal sense (player versus player).
This is not to say that playing poker for real money is the only way to play, especially for beginners and people that don't like risk, a beginner to the game will usually play with friends for very low stakes, or against a computer, eventually if they enjoy it they may play at a freeplay site like pogo.com. If they feel they are good at the game AND enjoy the thrill of playing for real money they may try playing at a casino or at a real money site.
comparing the different levels of play:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Against a Computer: Equivalent to playing a single player game, no risk, no reward, the best thing it has to offer is practice
Against People. No Stakes: here we have the equivalent of the wow player, no risk, possibly some small amount of reward (pogo etc you can win 'points' but if you lose you just get more chips to play with for free). You have the advantage of playing against a human opponent. much like wow pvp'ers who want the challenge of a human opponent, but not the risk of losing your stuff.
Against People. With Stakes: this is the hardcore category, you are playing against real people like the previous level, but now you can actually win or lose money. for many people that is the thrill of the game. For others, the mere prospect is horrifying, neither are right or wrong, and both should be able to play the version they prefer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All of the above ways of playing are totally viable, some are more 'carebear' than others but that is what some people like. That is fine, however coming to this game and asking for no item loot, is like a pogo player going to a casino and asking everyone to stop playing for money. The most likely response would be 'go back to pogo, mule' (sound familiar? swap pogo for wow and mule for carebear and there you go).
I have found that real money poker players, generally have a very good 'pvp' outlook. you wipe out their whole stack and the most likely thing you are to hear is 'nh' (nice hand). Some people of course bitch when they lose (especially to a bad beat) but this is the minority.
Tactics also change as you go up in levels, versus a comp you are going to mainly just find out what the comp tends to do, then exploit that as much as you can. versus players with no stakes games tend to be very heavy betting (all in on first good hand, lots of raising, etc). even at the low stakes tournament level you will see a lot of play that mirrors that tactic (because the tournament setup allows for this to be viable). when just sitting at a table playing for real money, people are much more cautious. The gameplay literaly is at a higher level because of the risk and reward involved.
When I played EQ and item loot went away, I saw many of the same arguments being made then as are being made now. Including 'you people are all griefers and gankers and will drive each other off in a couple months' and 'there's no market for what you want' etc etc.This is plainly false, the interest shown in this game proves that. There is a market for a full item loot pvp game (it's why I'm here) and if ganking drove people away real money poker would not be successful.
If this game succeeds it will be mostly because of item loot pvp. If it fails it's going to be mostly some other reason (poor support, patching, rebalancing, whatever). People LIKE item loot pvp, not all and maybe not you, but there is a market for it, the interest in this game has amply demonstrated that regardless of whether it actually succeeds or fails.
I am here because I like the thrill associated with the high level of risk and reward this system offers, without that I could get everything this game offers either from other mmo's or from playing an fps.
Speaking of FPS's, that is another example of the warcraft level of play, you play against other human opponents (more fun than playing against a computer) but you play for no stakes.
Being a person that plays poker for money, the idea of going to a site like pogo and playing is completely laughable to me. 'boring' would be my one word description. I feel the same way about pretty much all mmo's, 'boring' encompasses 90% of the mmo experiences I've had, the best memories I have from mmo's involve some type of risk/reward. Getting scammed in the realm, item loot pvp in EQ, 'epic quest pvp' (after item loot was gone) in EQ came close since again there were stakes involved. having the fire elemental part of our cleric epic stolen from us and then killing the lights that did it and camping them for so long their bodies were literaly in danger of expiring, then fighting over solusek for months to prevent those lights from getting a cleric epic. good times.
My 2 years in wow? nothing sticks out. Again you may not be the type of player that enjoys risk, but if that is true then this simply is not the game for you, you're trying to play pogo style in a casino. 'go back to wow' may be the short and rude version but there is a reason people say it. The common rebuttal to 'go back to wow' is that you will just drive people away with that attitude, but the truth is that players who do not like risk should go play another game, this one is not for them in the same way that a casino is not for someone that hates gambling (but enjoys playing cards).
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)